就在刚刚，马斯克（Elon Musk）在摩根大通总部与摩根大通CEO杰米·戴蒙进行了一次精彩对话。这次对话可以看作SpaceX上市的路演活动之一。
马斯克在对话中解释了之所以现在选择让SpaceX上市，是为了支撑公司进入一个大规模的基础设施建设阶段。他描绘了一个令人震撼的未来：SpaceX不仅要发射成千上万颗新一代星链卫星（Starlink V3）来提供覆盖全球的超高带宽通信 ，还计划在太空中建立AI数据中心，并最终在月球上利用其低引力环境，通过电磁加速器等技术实现更大规模的太空计算和能源采集。
此外，马斯克还分享了他对美国制造业回归的看法，以及他作为领导者在心态上的变化：他认为现在的自己比以前更“佛系”了，并且在选拔人才时不仅看重智商，更看重一个人是否拥有“善良的心”。
以下中英双语字幕视频和中英文全文：
『主持人：埃隆，欢迎来到摩根大通总部。你现在在 51 层，这个高度跟你平时去太空的地方没法比，但这已经是我们在纽约市能达到的最高处了。在我们正式开始之前，有一位非常特别的嘉宾想在这儿欢迎你——你的母亲梅耶·马斯克也在现场。梅耶，请站起来。我不知道你能不能看到我或者这里的各位——他们能看到你。嗯，他能听到。
Host: Elon, welcome to J.P. Morgan's headquarters. You're on the 51st floor, which is about the equivalent of nowhere near where you go generally in space, but as high as we can get in New York City. But before we get started with you and Jamie, we had a very special guest that wanted to welcome you here this afternoon. And so your mother, Mae Musk, is here to welcome you. Mae, please stand up. I don't think you can see me or everybody here. They can see you. Yes, he can.
埃隆·马斯克：我实际上看不到我妈，但我能听到她。
Elon Musk: I actually can't see my mom, but I can hear her.
梅耶·马斯克：我想说的是，你三岁的时候，我跟别人说我有个天才儿子，他们都会翻白眼。然后……
Maye Musk: What I'd like to say is when you were three years old and I told people I have a genius son, they would roll their eyes. And then...
埃隆·马斯克：当然！说实话，可以理解。
Elon Musk: Sure.Understandable, frankly.
梅耶·马斯克：我知道。我一直都知道。后来，当你说你要造火箭的时候，就轮到我翻白眼了。然后你真的做成了。所以，今天这是一场很棒的聚会，我们在庆祝。爱你，特别爱你。
Maye Musk: I knew. I knew. And then, when you said you wanted to start with rockets, then I rolled my eyes. And then you did it. And so, this is just a great party here, and we're celebrating. Love you, love you so much.
埃隆·马斯克：我也爱你。
Elon Musk: Love you too.
主持人：一位骄傲的妈妈。谢谢。
Host: One proud mama. Please.
杰米·戴蒙：埃隆，欢迎你。真的很荣幸在这个重要时刻请到你。这对我们来说是头一回，但它意义重大——它关乎美国创新的轨迹。我们正在直播，全球 100 个分支机构有 3500 名顶级个人投资者在线观看。这里现场有 350 人，全美各地还有 3500 人。
Jamie Dimon: So let me, Elon, welcome you. It's a really privilege to have you here on this momentous occasion. It's new for us, but it's an important thing, the trajectory of American innovation. We're here live, 3,500 people of our top individual investors around the world in 100 branches. There are 350 people here, 3,500 around the country.
杰米·戴蒙：这件事非常特别，因为埃隆一直在谈金融民主化。今天就是其中的一部分——让个人投资者享受和机构、对冲基金同等的待遇。我觉得这是件了不起的事。埃隆，顺便说一句，你胆子真大，换了我，绝对不会让我妈在我面前公开发言，天知道她会说出什么来。
Jamie Dimon: This is a very unique thing, by the way, because Elon has spoken about democratizing finance. This is part of it, treating individual investors the same way institutions are treated, and hedge funds and all those things. My view is it's a wonderful thing to do. Elon, very brave, by the way, because I would never let my mother speak publicly when I was in the room. God knows what she would have said.
埃隆·马斯克：其实我完全不知道她也在场。
Elon Musk: I had no idea she was there, actually.
杰米·戴蒙：埃隆是我们这个时代的爱迪生（Edison）。我记得大概 15 年前去特斯拉拜访埃隆，看到一种全新的造车方式垂直整合，这在当时的汽车行业闻所未闻。现在你又有了 SpaceX。我参观了 SpaceX 在加州的工厂，太震撼了，650 多枚火箭。你今天跟我说有一个已经上天了，把卫星送入太空。你们在天上有将近 1 万颗星链卫星。星链 V3 也快来了，全新一代，有望取代部分海底光缆。这 24 年，看着埃隆一步步成长，实在不平凡。而现在，你正在向未来发起一次巨大的飞跃。
Jamie Dimon: Elon is the Edison of our time. I remember visiting Elon and Tesla like 15 years ago. A whole new way of building cars, vertical integration, which had not been anything remote, what our car companies are doing. Now you have SpaceX. I visited the SpaceX factory in California, and it's exceptional to have more than 650 rockets, and you told me one today, putting satellites in space. You have 9,000, almost 10,000 Starlink satellites up there. Starlink 3 is coming, which is a whole new generation, which hopefully will replace some of these undersea cables. It's been an extraordinary 24 years with watching Elon grow over time. And now you're making a massive leap into the future.
欢迎你的到来。埃隆，我有 10 个问题要问你，我尽量每个都问到。其中一些问题来自现场观众，都很重要。第一个问题：为什么 SpaceX 选择现在上市？你是有选择的，不是非上不可。为什么是现在？
So welcome to coming here. Elon, I have 10 questions for you. So I want to make sure I get to each one. Some of them came from folks here. They're all important. But one, just to start, is why SpaceX public now? Because you had choices. You didn't have to. Why now?
埃隆·马斯克：嗯，很多年来一直有人问我，什么时候让 SpaceX 上市。大概有 10 年了吧，大家一直在建议我推动 SpaceX 上市。我们其实已经保持正现金流很长时间了，大概从 2014-2015 年左右开始。我们一直在自筹资金，实际上我们的私募股权融资轮根本不是为了融资，而是为投资者和员工提供流动性——因为我们给公司每个人都发股票。而且在大多数融资活动中，SpaceX 其实是在回购股票。
Elon Musk: Yeah, I've been asked for many years about taking SpaceX public. So it's probably been, I don't know, almost 10 years that people have been suggesting to me that I should take SpaceX public. We've been positive cash flow for quite a long time, I think, since around 2014-2015. And we've been self-funding, in fact, in our private equity rounds. They actually have not been fundraising rounds. They've been liquidity rounds for investors and employees because we give everyone at the company stock. And SpaceX has actually bought back stock in most of our sort of funding events.
埃隆·马斯克：现在不一样的地方在于——有多重原因——我们正在启动一个大规模增长阶段，一个资本密集的增长阶段。我们打算在轨道上部署大约 10 万颗卫星，甚至可能超过 10 万颗，仅用于通信。这些将是 V3 及后续版本，而非目前在轨的 V1 和 V2。V3 的能力，看你怎么算，是 V2 的 10 到 20 倍。SpaceX 芯片设计团队为此流片了三颗专用芯片，远超当前最先进水平。
Elon Musk: So what's different about now is that it's a number of things, but we are embarking on a significant growth phase, a capital growth phase, where we are going to put in orbit probably 100,000 satellites, probably over 100,000 satellites, just for communications. And these will be the version 3 and beyond versus version 2 and version 1 that are currently in orbit. Version 3 is, depending on how you count it, 10 to 20 times more capable than the version 2 satellite. And there were three chips that the SpaceX chip design team taped out that are specific to this that are far beyond state of the art.
埃隆·马斯克：这意味着带宽将比当前星链系统提升 100 倍，同时延迟减半——因为轨道高度只有原来的一半左右。我认为它实际上将成为带宽最高、延迟最低的通信手段。而未来，AI 和机器人对带宽的需求将远超我们现在使用的量级。你想想，人类的带宽峰值是多少？每秒几百比特。但一台计算机的带宽可以达到每秒一万亿比特。所以 AI 和机器人对带宽的胃口将是巨大的。
Elon Musk: Which means it's a hundred times more bandwidth than the SpaceX Starlink system currently offers and also half the latency because the altitude will be about half altitude. I think it will actually be the highest bandwidth, lowest latency means of communicating. And the future with AI and robots is actually going to require a lot more bandwidth than we currently use. Because you can imagine, what's the bandwidth of a human? Its peak bandwidth of a human is a few hundred bits per second, but bandwidth of a computer can be a trillion bits a second. So the appetite for bandwidth of AI and robots is going to be enormous.
埃隆·马斯克：然后我们还在做太空 AI 数据中心，这是另一个巨大的资本项目。但我认为这将是 AI 扩张的主要途径。在地面上建发电厂越来越难，很少有人希望自家后院冒出一个发电厂来。如果我们想把美国用电量翻一番——目前平均约 500 吉瓦——就得再建一倍的发电厂，而我觉得大多数社区对此不怎么感兴趣。可是，如果迈向太空，我们的发电量可以远远超越地球的规模。事实上，这听起来很疯狂，但你可以将可利用的能源扩大 100 万倍，同时消耗的还远远不到太阳输出能量的百万分之一。
Elon Musk: And then we're also doing the AI data centers in space, which is another massive capital endeavor. But I think it would be the primary means by which AI can be expanded. It's increasingly difficult to build power plants on the ground. There are very few people who want a power plant in their backyard. So if we wanted to say double the electricity usage of the United States, which is on average about 500 gigawatts, we would have to build about twice as many power plants, which I don't think people are... most communities are not super excited about that. But actually if we go to space, we can go far beyond the electricity generation of Earth. In fact, this is going to sound crazy, but you can actually increase harnessed energy by a factor of a million and still be using much less than a millionth of the sun's energy.
埃隆·马斯克：目前人类文明消耗的能量还不到太阳输出能量的万亿分之一，想想真是令人惭愧。我们实在是太渺小了——当你看到地球相对太阳的真实大小时，我们不过是无垠黑暗中的一粒微尘。太阳无比巨大，它占据了太阳系总质量的 99.8%，剩下 0.2% 里又大多是木星。有时别人问我——这个回答可能扯得有点远了——但你刚问我为什么现在上市，我却在讲太阳的能量输出。连个啰嗦的答案都还没给你。如果我是 AI，你大概会让我……行吧。但这确实很重要。
Elon Musk: So, the current human civilization uses much less than a trillionth of the sun's energy output, which is humbling to think about. We're really a tiny... When you see the true size of Earth relative to the sun, we're a tiny dust mote in a vast darkness. And the sun is enormous. The sun is 99.8% of all mass in the solar system, and most of the remaining 0.2% is Jupiter. Sometimes people ask me... I'm maybe going a little wide-ranging in this answer, but... Because you just asked me why you're being public now. I'm like, talking about the sun's power output. I'm like, I don't have a long-winded answer yet. If I was an AI, you might tell me to, you know, okay. But also, but it is important.
埃隆·马斯克：其中一些事情很重要，因为人们有时会好奇：未来的能源到底是什么？我可以告诉你，绝对是太阳能。或许更准确的说法是"恒星能"——来自恒星的能量。而最疯狂的是，即便你把太阳系中除太阳以外的所有质量全部烧掉，太阳产生的能量占比四舍五入后仍是 100%。因为太阳占了太阳系质量的 99.8%。就算你从别的星系传送两个木星过来，把它们也烧掉，太阳的能量占比还是四舍五入到 100%。就是这么夸张。在太空中，你可以将地球经济规模放大 100 万倍——以可利用的能量来衡量，这本身就是经济产出的一个很好的替代指标——而你消耗的仍远不到太阳输出能量的百万分之一。想想我们有多渺小，真的让人谦卑。而这只是一颗恒星而已。所以，长话短说：我们正在启动一个巨大的新增长阶段，需要资本来实现它。
Elon Musk: Some of these things are important because people sometimes wonder, what's the future of energy generation? And I can say that it is absolutely solar power. Or maybe a better word for solar power is star power. It's the power of a star. And the crazy thing is that it burnt all mass in the solar system. That was not the sun. The amount of energy produced by the sun would still round up to 100%. Because the Sun is 99.8% of the mass of the solar system. Even if you teleported two more Jupiters from another, somehow, teleported two more Jupiters from another solar system and burnt them too, the Sun would round up to 100%. So it's very much the Sun. And you can scale to a million times Earth's economy in space in terms of harness power, which is a good proxy for economic output, and still be much less than a millionth of the Sun's energy, which is, It's humbling, really, to think about how tiny we are. And this is just one star among many. So, I guess the TL, it would be we're embarking on a massive new growth phase and we need capital for that.
杰米·戴蒙：好的，好的。第二个问题。
Jamie Dimon: Okay. Okay. Number two.
埃隆·马斯克：还有一点是收入——我对收入预测也挺有信心的。以前收入不太稳定，但现在我觉得可预测性强了很多。
Elon Musk: Another thing is the revenue, like I also feel pretty good about like the revenue projections. Like before, like revenue was a little unstable, but now I feel like the revenue is like much more predictable. Yeah.
杰米·戴蒙：每次听你讲话我都能学到东西，我向你保证。当人们听到多行星物种、太空旅行——这些人类历史上最激动人心的想法——你能不能解释一下你常提到的那座桥，从地球通向月球再通向火星？
Jamie Dimon: I always learn listening to you, I guarantee you. When people hear about multi-planetary species, travel to space, one of the most exciting ideas in human history, can you explain the bridge that you speak about, I heard you talk about, from the Earth to the Moon to Mars?
埃隆·马斯克：好。去火星不一定要经过月球。我只是认为，我们可以在月球上比在火星上更快地建起一座自我生长的城市。另外还有一种可能性：如果你想将规模扩展到远超地球所能支持的量级，月球因为没有大气层、重力只有地球的六分之一，你可以使用电磁加速器——轨道炮或质量驱动器。基本上，你不需要用火箭把 AI 数据中心从月球送入深空，直接用轨道炮一样的家伙"射"出去就行了。
Elon Musk: Yeah. Yeah, so you don't necessarily have to go through the moon to get to Mars. I just think that we can build a self-growing city on the moon faster than we can do so on Mars. And there's also the potential, if you say you want to scale far beyond what you can do from Earth is that because the Moon has no atmosphere and about one-sixth of Earth's gravity, you can use an electromagnetic accelerator, a railgun or mass driver. Basically, you don't need to use rockets to do AI data centers into deep space from the Moon. You can literally just shoot them like a railgun type of thing.
埃隆·马斯克：而且你可以在月球上利用月球材料制造太阳能板和散热器。这将使年发电量可能超过 1000 太瓦——一个真正惊人的数字。我估计从地球上大概可以做到每年约 1 太瓦的 AI 太空算力，但从月球我们可以做到 1000 太瓦甚至更多。同时，我们还能建一个月球基地。而且我觉得去月球度假会非常酷。
Elon Musk: And you can manufacture the solar and the radiators, solar power and radiators on the Moon from Moon materials. That would allow scaling potentially to beyond a thousand terawatts a year, which is a truly staggering number. Like I think we can do probably somewhere around one terawatt per year of AI space compute from Earth. But we can do a thousand terawatts or more from the moon. And like I said, we can also make a moon base. And I think it would be pretty, pretty cool if you could vacation on the moon.
未知发言人：那将是史诗级的。
Unknown Speaker: That would be the most epic.
埃隆·马斯克：度假。不是每个人都想去月球，但我相信有很多人想去。前提当然是你能安全地去、安全地回来。我认为未来这是可以实现的。然后火星是更远的一步。火星是一整颗行星，重力跟地球接近得多，而且有大气层——虽然比较稀薄。如果你让火星升温，有一天可以把火星变得像地球一样：有液态海洋，有生命，你可以不穿宇航服在户外行走。所以我把火星叫做"待装修的星球"，但它潜力巨大。
Elon Musk: Vacation. Not everybody wants to go to the moon, but I think a lot of people do. I think we're pretty amazing, obviously provided you can do so safely and come back safely and everything. But I think that will be possible in the future. And then Mars is another step beyond that. Mars is a whole planet, and with gravity much closer to that of Earth's, and it has an atmosphere, albeit it's an atmosphere. And if you warm up Mars, you could one day make Mars like Earth, meaning with liquid oceans and life, and where you could walk outside without a spacesuit type of thing. So Mars is, I call Mars the fixer-upper of the planet, but it's got a lot of potential.
杰米·戴蒙：让我接着问第三个问题。不过我从没想过你会涉足酒店业。
Jamie Dimon: Let me go to number three, but I never ever thought you'd be in the hospitality business.
埃隆·马斯克：没错。月球上应该有酒店，你不觉得吗？
Elon Musk: Yeah. Absolutely. We should have moon hotels, don't you think? Yeah.
杰米·戴蒙：马斯克酒店。
Jamie Dimon: Musk hotels.
埃隆·马斯克：有可能。其实你可以把我们想象成当年的联合太平洋铁路公司。当年他们修联合太平洋铁路的时候，人们觉得他们疯了——你为什么要往加州运这么多货、拉这么多人？那边一个人都没有。但现在加州是全美人口最多的州。
Elon Musk: It could be. Actually, you think of us more like we're kind of like the Union Pacific. When they built the Union Pacific back in the day, people thought they were crazy because like, why are you trying to carry all this cargo and people to California? No one's there. But now California is the biggest state in the country.
杰米·戴蒙：不过也不会太久了。好吧。说到星舰，你把它造出来了，一艘令人难以置信的飞船。我记得已经飞了 12 次。但技术上确实很难。有哪些你实现的关键突破，是大家还不知道、但其实应该知道的？
Jamie Dimon: Not for long, but yeah. So Starship, you built it, unbelievable ship, I think it's already had 12 flights I read, but obviously technically it's just hard to do. What are some of the breakthroughs you had that people should know about that they don't know about?
埃隆·马斯克：我们的直播做得非常好，所以我推荐任何想了解星舰的人去看 SpaceX 官网或星舰的直播回放，那是了解它的好方式。但星舰最根本的突破在于：它将是第一枚完全可重复使用的轨道火箭。这听起来好像是理所当然的——因为在所有其他交通工具上，无论是飞机、汽车、自行车、马、轮船，我们都理所当然地认为它们是可以重复使用的。如果每次飞行后都要把飞机扔掉，机票会贵得离谱。而过去的火箭就是这样的。但从技术上讲，让火箭实现完全可重复使用极其困难。我们通过猎鹰 9 号已经实现了一部分，而星舰将彻底做到。
Elon Musk: Our webcasts are very good, so I recommend anyone, if they want to learn about Sponge Starship, the SpaceX website or any of the Starship livecasts are a great way to learn about it. But really, the fundamental breakthrough of Starship is that it will be the first orbital rocket that is fully reusable. So, this might sound like an obvious thing, but because in every other mode of transport, whether that's aircraft, cars, bicycles, horses, you name it, ships, these are all, we take it for granted that they are reusable. An aircraft journey would be very expensive if you had to throw the plane away every time. And that's how rockets have been in the past. But it's very difficult from a technology standpoint to achieve full reusability for a rocket. We've got part of the way there with Falcon 9, but we'll get all the way there with Starship.
埃隆·马斯克：一旦实现完全可重复使用，进入轨道的成本就只剩下推进剂的成本——因为飞行器的所有部分都可以重复使用。而星舰使用的推进剂是液氧和液态甲烷，这是你能找到的最便宜的推进剂。氧气从空气中直接提取，甲烷来自天然气。所以星舰的推进剂成本将低于航空燃油，这意味着你可以用比跨洋航空货运还低的成本将货物送入太空。
Elon Musk: And once you achieve full reusability, then it's simply the cost of access to orbit is just the cost of propellant, because now you can reuse all aspects of the vehicle. And the propellant we use for Starship is liquid oxygen and liquid methane, which is the cheapest propellant you could possibly get. You can just literally get oxygen from the air and methane from natural gas. So the cost of propellant for Starship will be less than the cost of jet aviation fuel. Which means that you should be able to actually send cargo to space for less than the cost of cargo on an airplane going on a transoceanic trip.
杰米·戴蒙：星链，另一项了不起的成就——全球通信。我们已经提到了乌克兰。你之前跟我说过 V3 有望替代部分海底光缆，而海底光缆其实是个巨大的安全隐患，因为波罗的海已经有好几条被切断了。那么星链的下一步是什么，V3 乃至 V4？
Jamie Dimon: Starlink, another thing that has been amazing, global communications, we already mentioned Ukraine. You had mentioned to me that V3 would maybe be able to replace some of these cyber cables, which by the way is a huge security risk for all of us because several have already been cut in the Baltic Sea. So what's the next view for Starlink, both V3 and maybe V4?
埃隆·马斯克：V3 卫星是条"龙"，你可以在网上查。如我所说，它的能力是 V2 的 10 到 20 倍。它是一颗非常大的卫星，实际上只能用星舰来发射——它太大了，地球上其他任何火箭都装不下。星舰的货舱直径有 30 英尺（约 9 米），而 V3 卫星大约 7 米宽，差不多 22、23 英尺。非常大，基本上一辆小巴士那么大。技术细节很多：我们有更大的相控阵天线，更多的地面链路，更多的激光设备。我们的卫星之间用我们自己研发制造的激光通信。V3 有更多激光器，而且更先进，还有 W 波段和 E 波段——这些都是技术细节。总之，它就像一个疯狂的轨道广播站。
Elon Musk: Yeah, so the V3 satellite is a dragon and you can look it up on the internet. As I said, it's 10 to 20 times more capable than V2. It's a very big satellite. In fact, it can only be launched on Starship. So it's too big to be launched on any other rocket on Earth? So, Starship has a 30-foot diameter cargo bay. And the V3 satellites are, let's see, they're about 7 meters, so about 22, 23 feet wide. So, very big. Like the size of a small bus, essentially. There's a bunch of technical details. We have much bigger phased array antennas. We've got more ground links. We've got more of our laser. Our satellites communicate with each other with lasers that we developed and manufacture. So it's got a lot more lasers and more advanced lasers. It's also got W band and E band. These are the technical details. But it's got a lot of... It's like a crazy orbiting radio station.
杰米·戴蒙：星舰一次能发射 12 到 15 颗？
Jamie Dimon: Doesn't Starship do 12 of them or 15 at once?
埃隆·马斯克：应该能打 50 颗。因为星舰 V3 的目标是完全可重复使用下 100 吨入轨。而星舰 V4，我们的目标是每次任务超过 200 吨，并且每小时发射一次。
Elon Musk: It should be able to do 50. Because Starship V3 is aiming to do 100 tons to orbit with full reusability. And then Starship V4, we're aiming for over 200 tons per mission. And then being able to launch every hour.
杰米·戴蒙：下一个问题，太空数据中心。你一直在谈这个话题，别人也提到过。显然它有独特的技术优势：上面更冷、振动更小。但你还得想办法把数据传回地面。我记得你提到过激光，不分晴雨天。那你深入研究之后，现在觉得难度如何？
Jamie Dimon: Next one, data centers in space. You've been talking about that. Other people have mentioned it, but obviously it has different technical capabilities. It's colder up there. There's less vibration. But you also got to get the data back to the earth by some method. I think you mentioned the lasers in good weather and bad. And so how hard is it to do now that you've looked at it for a while?
埃隆·马斯克：我们不认为这件事特别难。实际上，我们认为它比我们的通信卫星简单得多。星链 V3 通信卫星是一台极为复杂的机器。相比之下，AI 数据中心要简单得多——基本上就是太阳能板加散热器，一些基础卫星运行设备，再加上激光链路，接入星链通信星座，然后传回地面。无论天气如何都能连接，因为一旦通过激光接入星链通信星座，星链到地面的通信使用的是穿透云层的频率，甚至在一定程度上能穿透屋顶。所以你随时都能和数据中心保持连接。
Elon Musk: We don't think this is a particularly difficult thing to do. In fact, we think it's easier than our communications satellites. Quite a bit easier than our communications satellites. The Starlink V3 communications satellite is an incredibly complex machine. The AI data center would be much simpler by comparison, because it's really just solar power plus radiator, some basic equipment for operating the satellite, and then the laser links, which would connect to the Starlink communications constellation. And then back to the ground. The connection would happen no matter what the weather is because once you connect via lasers to the Starlink communication constellation, the Starlink communicates to the ground with frequencies that are cloud penetrating. In fact, even roof penetrating to some degree. So you would always be able to close link with the data centers.
杰米·戴蒙：很好。说到美国，这里有一件大事——我们长期以来一直在讨论美国的再工业化，让先进制造业回流。而你现在要建 TerraFab，在纽约建芯片工厂。你手里已经这么多事情了，是什么驱使你现在去做这件事？
Jamie Dimon: Excellent. Talking about America, one of the big things here, we've been talking about the reindustrialization of America for a long time, bringing back advanced manufacturing, and now you're talking about building the TerraFab, building chip fabs in New York. What compelled you to do that now with all the other things you're working on?
埃隆·马斯克：限制因素是什么？我们看到的限制因素是芯片制造能力——逻辑芯片、存储芯片，还有封装。值得注意的是，目前美国境内没有一条高产能的计算机内存生产线。一条都没有。美光科技在爱达荷州在建一条，但我觉得要到 2028 年才能量产。纽约也有一些在建项目，但大概是 2029、2030 年的事了。而这只是所需内存的极小一部分。实际上，即便你把各家内存和逻辑芯片厂商最乐观的扩产计划全都算上，也远远满足不了预期的需求。这就是为什么你看到美光的市值涨到了 1.2 万亿美元之类的高位。
Elon Musk: So what's the limiting factor? And the limiting factor, what we see as the limiting factor is being able to make chips, both logic, memory, and packaging. It's worth noting that there's not a single high-volume computer memory fab in America right now. Zero. There's one being built in Idaho by Micron, but that will not reach volume production until, I believe, 2028. And there's something built in New York, but they are, I think, 29 and 30. And this is a tiny fraction of the memory that's needed. And in fact, even if you take the best case assumptions of the memory makers and the logic makers, it is not enough to meet the demand that is anticipated. Which is why you're seeing stocks of micron go to I think 1.2 trillion or some quite high number.
埃隆·马斯克：所以很明显，对 AI 逻辑芯片、存储芯片和封装——本质上就是 AI 计算机——的需求远远超过了现有制造商最乐观的扩产计划。这就是为什么我们需要做 TerraFab。它看起来是必然之举，否则芯片根本不够用。
Elon Musk: So there's just clearly a need for AI logic memory and packaging, AI computers essentially, that is far beyond what even the best case assumptions of the existing fabricators can do. And that's why we need to do the TerraFab. Yeah, it seems like essential, otherwise we will not, there will not be enough chips.
杰米·戴蒙：我再问一个关于你正在建造的东西的问题，然后稍微聊点别的。AI 战略——你还把 Grok 引入了 SpaceX。这在你构建的整个平台中扮演什么角色？
Jamie Dimon: So I'm going to do one more on some of the stuff you're building and then a little bit more on other issues. AI strategy, you've also bought, took Grok inside into SpaceX. How does that fit into this platform you're building?
埃隆·马斯克：我们的 SpaceX AI 卫星计划是让用户可以把任何他们想要的 GPU 或 TPU 放上去。英伟达的 GPU 可以放，谷歌的 TPU 可以放，亚马逊 Trainium 或者其他任何芯片都可以放。未来我们也会提供自己的芯片。同时，我想到时候我们也想提供自己的 AI 软件。但核心是：你可以在 SpaceX 的 AI 卫星上运行任何人的 AI 硬件或软件。
Elon Musk: So we do intend with our SpaceX AI satellites to allow people to put whatever GPU or TPU they want. So if NVIDIA GPUs can be put on it, Google TPUs can be put on it, Amazon Trainiums or any other chips that people want to put on, can be put on. We'll also offer our chips in the future. And I think we also want to offer our software, our AI software as well in the future. But it will be such that you can run anyone's AI hardware or software on the Tesla AI satellite, SpaceX AI satellites.
杰米·戴蒙：接下来三个问题完全不同。我一个一个来。第一个关于对爱国主义的看法和为国家的服务。第二个关于企业文化与人才梯队——你到底是怎么打造这些优秀公司的？在座很多人都有类似的问题。第三个关于领导力，我有个非常具体的问题。但先从爱国主义开始吧。你一直在为这个国家服务，我知道你是个爱国者，我们聊过。你如何看待自己作为一个美国爱国者的角色，如何帮助美国？
Jamie Dimon: So the next three are completely different. I'm going to mention each one. I'll ask you each one. But one's about his view of patriotism and service to this country. One's about culture and bench. How do you actually build these wonderful companies? Because a lot of people here have those issues. And then kind of leadership. I have a very specific question about that. But first I'll start with patriotism. You've served this country. I know you're a patriot. We've spoken about it. How do you view your role of being an American patriot helping the United States?
埃隆·马斯克：是的，我极其支持美国，一直如此。SpaceX 确实为国防部做了大量工作——现在叫"战争部"了。我们有一个部门叫星盾（Starshield），提供军事通信，还有一些涉密的东西不能谈。但我们确实在帮助战争部和情报部门，为政府的关键组成部分提供支持。总而言之，我就是超级支持美国，一直是这样。
Elon Musk: But yeah, I'm incredibly pro-American, and I can always tap in. Yeah, SpaceX does do a lot of work for the Department of Defense, Department of War these days. We have a division called Starshield, which provides military communications and there's some other stuff that's kind of classified. We can't talk about that, but we are helping the Department of War and Intel, part of the government, a vital element of that. Yeah, I'm just super pro-America. Always have been.
杰米·戴蒙：谢谢。企业文化与人才梯队。布雷特，我认识你 15、20 年了。我知道 SpaceX 培养了一批非常深厚的人才梯队。你是怎么保持的？什么对你来说最重要？你怎么确保留住最优秀的人才？
Jamie Dimon: Thank you. Culture bench. Brett, I've been with you for 15, 20 years. I know you've built a huge bench in SpaceX. How do you keep it going? What's important to you? How do you make sure you keep the best talent?
埃隆·马斯克：格温大概是第七个加入公司的人，那是在 2002 年，已经 24 年了。总体来看，公司的高管层任期都非常长。布伦特·约翰逊已经做了 15 年的 CFO。我想这是因为大家真的相信公司的使命。他们想留下来，想继续构建这一切。我们要让人类成为跨行星文明，我们要把人类带到火星、月球，最终走得更远。这就像把科幻变成现实，去往从未被探索过的地方，让《星际迷航》成真。
Elon Musk: Yeah, Gwyn was I think around the seventh person to join the company, and that was 2002. So it's been like 24 years. And generally the senior executives at the company have a very long tenure. I think Brent Johnson's been CFO for 15 years. And yeah, like we're I think because people really believe in the mission, I think they want to stay and they want to keep building it. We want to make humanity a space-faring civilization. We want to take humanity to Mars and the Moon and ultimately beyond. It's like science fiction, make it real. Go to places that have never been explored before. Make Star Trek real.
杰米·戴蒙：那是我最喜欢的剧之一。
Jamie Dimon: That was one of my favorite shows.
埃隆·马斯克：是啊。
Elon Musk: Yeah.
杰米·戴蒙：很好。最后一个问题，你创办了多家公司。从 20 年前到现在，你有什么变化？也许我该直接问你——从刚起步到今天，你学到了什么？作为领导者，作为个人，你是如何变化的？
Jamie Dimon: Excellent. And then last one, you've built multiple companies. How have you changed from maybe 20 years ago? Actually, maybe I should ask you guys. How have you changed from like when you started to today, lessons you've learned, how you've changed both as a leader and as a person?
埃隆·马斯克：我觉得我比以前更冷静了。比以前放松多了。当然也不是特别放松，但确实比以前好很多。还有一件事我逐渐体会到的，我以前也提过：在招人和用人的时候，个人能力和智力水平固然重要，但这个人是否有一颗善良的心也很关键。不光看智商有多高，还要看是不是一个好人，这一点非常重要。怎么说呢，我觉得我学到了很多，虽然我还感觉有很多东西要学，也犯了很多错。但也许未来 AI 会评价一句：作为一个人类来说，还不错。
Elon Musk: I think I'm probably more chill than I used to be. So I'm way more laid back than I used to be. Not that laid back, but more than I used to be for sure. And one of the things that I found over time I mentioned this before, is that in terms of recruiting people to the company and having people work at the company, their individual abilities and their intellectual capabilities matter a lot, but it also matters if they have a good heart. It's not just about whether somebody has a certain IQ or whatever, but just they're a good person. That matters a lot. I don't know. I guess I've learned a lot, although I feel like I still have a lot to learn and make a lot of mistakes. But I think maybe the future AI will say, not bad for a human.
杰米·戴蒙：在感谢埃隆到来之前，我想由衷地说一句——看着你一家一家地创办公司，我迫不及待想看到下一个 10 年或 15 年你会实现什么、梦想什么：登上火星、开创新的事业、持续创造。埃隆，我代表在座的每个人感谢你今天来到这里，分享你的想法。外面有关于 SpaceX 上市的宣传册供大家取阅。埃隆，谢谢你。
Jamie Dimon: Listen, before we thank Elon for coming, I just want to thank him. Just watching him build companies and I can't wait to watch the next 10 or 15 years about what you accomplish and what you dream of and getting to Mars and building new businesses and being creative. So, Elon, I want to thank you on behalf of everybody for coming here, sharing your ideas. There are brochures out there about the whole SpaceX thing. But Elon, thank you.
主持人：我想说，距离 7 月 4 日独立日恰好还有一个月。
Host: I will say that we are exactly one month away from the Fourth of July.』